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Òåìà: Äèëåòàíòñêèé âîïðîñ ïî ãàðìîíèè ó Áèòëç.
Âðåìÿ: 14.02.2009 08:05 |
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Èç ïåðâûõ ãëàâ ó÷åáíèêà ïî ãàðìîíèè âûÿñíèë, ÷òî ïîñëåäîâàòåëüíîñòü T - D - S - T ñàìàÿ ÷òî íè åñòü êðàìîëà. Ïî÷åìó æå ïðèìåð òàêîãî îáîðîòà â çíàìåíèòîé ïåñíè Áèòëç çâó÷èò âïîëíå êîøåðíî (ñêàæåì äàæå - âïîëíå øèêàðíî), è ñëóõ åùå íè ó êîãî íå ïîðåçàë? Speakin' words of wisdom "let it be"... C - G - F - C. Ñïàñèáî. 
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Òåìà: Re: Äèëåòàíòñêèé âîïðîñ ïî ãàðìîíèè ó Áèòëç.
Âðåìÿ: 14.02.2009 10:28 |
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Áëþçîâàÿ áàëàëàéêà  
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Õîä D - S â ðîêå ïðîèñõîäèò îò ãàðìîíèè àðõàè÷íîãî áëþçà,ãäå åñòü àíàëîãè÷íûé õîä ìåæäó äåâÿòûì è äåñÿòûì òàêòîì,êîòîðûé â ñâîþ î÷åðåäü ïðîèñõîäèò èç Àôðèêè, è îñíîâàí íà ïåíòàòîíèêå. Áëþç îáúåäèíÿåò ýëåìåíòû òîíàëüíûå è ìîäàëüíûå,ñèìâîëèçèðóþùèå ñïëàâ åâðîïåéñêîé è àôðèêàíñêîé êóëüòóð íà ïìåðèêàíñêîé ïî÷âå. | |
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Òåìà: Re: Äèëåòàíòñêèé âîïðîñ ïî ãàðìîíèè ó Áèòëç.
Âðåìÿ: 14.02.2009 11:23 |
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sunny, â ãàðìîíèÿõ Áèòëñ ó÷åáíèê êëàññè÷åñêîé ãàðìîíèè íå ðàáîòàåò (â îñíîâíîì). Ïî÷èòàéòå ïðî íàòóðàëüíî-ëàäîâóþ ãàðìîíèþ. |
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"îñòàíåòñÿ âîïðîñ î òîì, íàñêîëüêî àäåêâàòíî òîò èëè
èíîé ó÷àñòíèê ôîðóìà îöåíèâàåò ñâîé ðåçóëüòàò"(ñ) |
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Òåìà: Re: Äèëåòàíòñêèé âîïðîñ ïî ãàðìîíèè ó Áèòëç.
Âðåìÿ: 14.02.2009 13:47 |
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ïÿòü ñòðóí, íó èëè øåñòü äðàòü è ðâàòü 
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Ó÷åáíèê íàäî ÷èòàòü î÷åíü âíèìàòåëüíî, èáî òàì îïèñûâàåòñÿ, êàê ïèñàòü íå íàäî. | |
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Òåìà: Re: Äèëåòàíòñêèé âîïðîñ ïî ãàðìîíèè ó Áèòëç.
Âðåìÿ: 14.02.2009 22:56 |
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> Ó÷åáíèê íàäî ÷èòàòü î÷åíü âíèìàòåëüíî, èáî òàì îïèñûâàåòñÿ, êàê ïèñàòü íå íàäî. õîðîøî, ÷òî áèòëû íå ÷èòàëè ýòîò ó÷åáíèê, à òî áû ìû òàê è ñëóøàëè ïðåäñêàçóåìûå íàäîåâøèå T-S-D-T 
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"îñòàíåòñÿ âîïðîñ î òîì, íàñêîëüêî àäåêâàòíî òîò èëè
èíîé ó÷àñòíèê ôîðóìà îöåíèâàåò ñâîé ðåçóëüòàò"(ñ) |
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Òåìà: Re: Äèëåòàíòñêèé âîïðîñ ïî ãàðìîíèè ó Áèòëç.
Âðåìÿ: 14.02.2009 23:13 |
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Áëþçîâàÿ áàëàëàéêà
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>õîðîøî, ÷òî áèòëû íå ÷èòàëè ýòîò ó÷åáíèê, à òî áû ìû òàê è ñëóøàëè ïðåäñêàçóåìûå íàäîåâøèå T-S-D-T Íó íå ñêàæèòå.Ó Áèòëîâ áûë ïÿòûé ó÷àñòíèê -Äæ.Ìàðòèí,ó êîòîðîãî ñ òåîðèåé ðàçóìååòñÿ ïîëíûé ïîðÿäîê.Ïî-ìîåìó îí ïîâëèÿë íà èõ âûáîð ãàðìîíèé òåì,÷òî ïîïðîñòóïðåäëîæèë ïîâåðíóòü ãàðìîíè÷åñêèå øàãè âñïÿòü êâèíòîâîìó êðóãó(ïðåäïîëîæåíèå). |
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Òåìà: Re: Äèëåòàíòñêèé âîïðîñ ïî ãàðìîíèè ó Áèòëç.
Âðåìÿ: 15.02.2009 00:44 |
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> Ó Áèòëîâ áûë ïÿòûé ó÷àñòíèê -Äæ.Ìàðòèí... ÷òî ïîïðîñòó ïðåäëîæèë ïîâåðíóòü ãàðìîíè÷åñêèå øàãè âñïÿòü êâèíòîâîìó êðóãó... À äî íåãî îíè ñî÷èíÿëè ñòðîãî â ñîîòâåòñòâèè ñ áðèãàäíûì ó÷åáíèêîì.)) Íî òàì íå òîëüêî "êâèíòîâûé êðóã âñïÿòü" (êñòàòè, â êàêîé ïåñíå Áèòëç åñòü êâèíòîâûé êðóã âñïÿòü? ó Õåíäðèêñà ïîìíþ, à ó Áèòëç íå âñïîìíèë). Òàì ïîëíî è äðóãèõ íå-ôóíêöèîíàëüíûõ ñîîòíîøåíèé. Íàâåðíîå Ìàðòèí è ïåñíè çà íèõ ïèñàë, âåäü îíè â òåîðèè - íóëè, à êàê áåç òåîðèè ñî÷èíÿòü... À ó Ìàðòèíà ìåòîä ïðîñòîé - óçíàë ÷òî-íèáóäü èç ó÷åáíèêà è ñäåëàë íàîáîðîò, òàê ìèëëèîí÷èêè è íàæèëè... Ïðÿìî ïî Õàðìñó. Ñêîðåå èñòîêè ýòî ïðîäîëæåíèå àíãëèéñêîé íàðîäíîé äîôóíêöèîíàëüíîé ìóçûêå. Êîíå÷íî, ìíîãî è äðóãèõ âëèÿíèé. NèêîëàéPEtrovi÷, åñëè áóäåò æåëàíèå è âðåìÿ, ïðåäëàãàþ ñäåëàòü ñòóïåíåâûé àíàëèç ýòîé ïåñíè Áèòëç: I Am The Walrus Ãàðìîíèÿ ïåñíè: 0) |H |[ H | A (A6) |G | F (F6) | E | E7 |D | D7 | 1) |A A/G| C D |A A/G| C |D | A | 2) |A A/G| D/F# F-G |A A/G| F |H |% | C |D | E | 1)... 3) | Dsus4 | % | A | E |D | 2)... +bell| 0'') |H A | G F | E | 4)|H A | G F |E F | H |% | C | D | E | D | 1), 2) 5) |D |C | H | A | G | F | E | |
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"îñòàíåòñÿ âîïðîñ î òîì, íàñêîëüêî àäåêâàòíî òîò èëè
èíîé ó÷àñòíèê ôîðóìà îöåíèâàåò ñâîé ðåçóëüòàò"(ñ) |
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Òåìà: Re: Äèëåòàíòñêèé âîïðîñ ïî ãàðìîíèè ó Áèòëç.
Âðåìÿ: 15.02.2009 02:23 |
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Ïåòåðáóðã Ìèêøåð
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>Íàâåðíîå Ìàðòèí è ïåñíè çà íèõ ïèñàë, âåäü îíè â òåîðèè - íóëè, à êàê áåç òåîðèè ñî÷èíÿòü... À ó Ìàðòèíà ìåòîä ïðîñòîé - óçíàë ÷òî-íèáóäü èç ó÷åáíèêà è ñäåëàë íàîáîðîò, òàê ìèëëèîí÷èêè è íàæèëè... Íà ñàìîì äåëå, äåéñòâèòåëüíî, Áèòëç ïðîñòî èñïîëüçîâàëè áëþçîâóþ ãàðìîíèþ. 2 sunny >ïîñëåäîâàòåëüíîñòü T - D - S - T ñàìàÿ ÷òî íè åñòü êðàìîëà. Åñëè ïî÷èòàòü ó÷åáíèê âíèìàòåëüíåå, ôðàçà çâó÷èò òàê: " åâðîïåéñêîé ïðîôåññèîíàëüíîé ìóçûêå íå èñïîëüçóåòñÿ ïîñëåäîâàòåëüíîñòü D - S". Ýòî îçíà÷àåò, ÷òî â ëþáîé äðóãîé ìóçûêå òàêîãî çàïðåòà íåò. |
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Òåìà: Re: Äèëåòàíòñêèé âîïðîñ ïî ãàðìîíèè ó Áèòëç.
Âðåìÿ: 15.02.2009 04:28 |
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> Íà ñàìîì äåëå, äåéñòâèòåëüíî, Áèòëç ïðîñòî èñïîëüçîâàëè áëþçîâóþ ãàðìîíèþ. Áëþçîâîé ãàðìîíèåé òàì è íå ïàõíåò. Ïî ñëåäóþùèì ïðè÷èíàì: 1.Îòñóòñòâèå äàæå íàìåêà íà áëþçîâûé ëàä 2.Áëþçîâûé îáîðîò IV-V ïîäðàçóìåâàåò íàëè÷èå ìàëûõ ñåïòèì â ýòèõ àêêîðäàõ. È èìåííî ïîÿâëåíèå àêêîðäà 4 ñòóïåíè ïîñëå äîìèíàíòñåòàêêîðäà, à íå òðåçâó÷èÿ âûçûâàåò âîçìóùåíèå ó êëàññè÷åñêîãî "îðòîäîêñà". 3. Äðóãîé ãàðìîíè÷åñêèé ðèòì. 4. Åñëè ïðèãëÿäåòüñÿ âíèìàòåëüíî, òî ìîæíî óâèäåòü, ÷òî â LIB ñóáäîìèíàíòà ðàçðåøàåòñÿ íå íåïîñðåäñòâåííî â òîíèêó, êàê â áëþçå, à ïëàâíî ñâÿçûâàåòñÿ äâèæåíèåì ïðîõîäÿùèõ àêêîðäîâ (èëè èíòåðâàëîâ) ïî ñòóïåíÿì ãàììû â ñîîòâåòñâèè ñ ìåëîäè÷åñêèì òÿãîòåíèåì, ÷òî ñâèäåòåëüñâóåò çà ìîäàëüíûé ïðèíöèï. Íó è íàêîíåö öèòàòà èç ó÷åáíèêà ãàðìîíèè (Òþëèí) î íàòóðàëüíî-ëàäîâîé ãàðìîíèè: " öåëîì ìîæíî ñêàçàòü, ÷òî èìåííî íåîáû÷íûå äëÿ ìàæîðî-ìèíîðíîé ñèñòåìû ïîñëåäîâàíèÿ òðåçâó÷èé è îáðàçóþò ñïåöèôè÷åñêèå íàòóðàëüíî-ëàäîâûå îáîðîòû (íàïðèìåð, íèñõîäÿùèå ñåêóíäîâûå II—I, Ø—II, IV—III, V—IV).  îáû÷íîì ìàæîðî-ìèíîðå ïðè íåñîîòâåòñòâóþùåì èñïîëüçîâàíèè ýòè îáîðîòû ìîãóò çâó÷àòü èñêóññòâåííî, âû÷óðíî. Ïðè îïðåäåëåííîì æå âûÿâëåíèè íàòóðàëüíîãî ëàäà îíè îêàçûâàþòñÿ âïîëíå åñòåñòâåííûìè." |
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"îñòàíåòñÿ âîïðîñ î òîì, íàñêîëüêî àäåêâàòíî òîò èëè
èíîé ó÷àñòíèê ôîðóìà îöåíèâàåò ñâîé ðåçóëüòàò"(ñ) |
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Òåìà: Re: Äèëåòàíòñêèé âîïðîñ ïî ãàðìîíèè ó Áèòëç.
Âðåìÿ: 15.02.2009 04:31 |
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çàáûë ïðèàòà÷èòü ïðèìåð, ãäå ñâÿçûâàåòñÿ F è C: | |
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"îñòàíåòñÿ âîïðîñ î òîì, íàñêîëüêî àäåêâàòíî òîò èëè
èíîé ó÷àñòíèê ôîðóìà îöåíèâàåò ñâîé ðåçóëüòàò"(ñ)
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Òåìà: Re: Äèëåòàíòñêèé âîïðîñ ïî ãàðìîíèè ó Áèòëç.
Âðåìÿ: 15.02.2009 12:19 |
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Áëþçîâàÿ áàëàëàéêà
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Crumbling cadences. In the Beatles' songs we find more than just the occasional trick chord of rock 'n' roll and rhythm and blues. Disregarding the fences between these and other styles of American popular music, the Beatles managed to combine the harmonic conventions of all these styles in one and the same song (Heinonen & Eerola, 2000). As a result the chords in their songs add up to incredible numbers — at least in respect to conventional musicological theory. On average there are 8.24 chords per song for the forty-six early originals the Beatles performed on record from 1962 till the end of 1964. For all the songs of the Beatles' canon Harry Klaassen and Piet Schreuders (1997) estimate a mean of 9 chords, peaking at a maximum of 21 chords for McCartney's "You Never Give Me Your Money." From a musicological perspective such an overload of chords threatens to make a song sound false by endangering the key. On this point almost any Beatles' song can serve as an example. Let's take a quick look at "I Want To Hold Your Hand," the song that introduced young people in the USA to the British appropriation of rock 'n' roll and rhythm and blues. It is the same song that evoked Roger McGuinn to say: "The words weren't so meaningful but the chord changes really had magic in them" (Muni, Somach & Somach, 1989: 168). Bob Dylan reacted in a similar way, by remarking: "They were doing things nobody was doing. Their chords were outrageous, just outrageous, and their harmonies made it all valid ..." (Scaduto, 1973: 203-204). Example 1: I Want To Hold Your Hand (verse) "I Want To Hold Your Hand" is exemplary in showing the accumulation of harmonic tricks in the early Beatles' songs. There is the downward modulation in the middle eight, where the home key of G is shifted to C by pivoting on the minor fifth (v7) — a feat the Beatles successfully had performed earlier on in "From Me To You" (Kramarz, 1983: 132; Tillekens, 1999). Next, there is the abrupt return from this modulation to the original key by a sudden introduction of its dominant at the end of the middle eight: C -» D (-» G). By repeating these C -» D ostinato's the Beatles empower the inherent strain of this forced return to the original key. These same ostinato's open the song and this, of course, adds its spice to the whole ensemble of harmonic surprises. Last but not least, there is the minor third in the fourth measure of our example which, according to Lennon himself, "made" the song (Sheff & Olson, 1981: 17). Many years after the fact, this chord still comes as a surprise for most Beatles' experts. The transcription of Tetsuya Fujita, Yuji Hagino, Hajime Kubo and Goro Sato in "The Beatles Complete Scores" (1983) presents this triad as a Major third with an added seventh. Terence O'Grady (1983: 42) and Pollack (1991: 43) perceive the chord as a B Major. They characterize it as an aborted modulation or a deceptive cadence. MacDonald (1994: 76) rightly chooses the minor chord iii, but also experiences the introduction of this chord as a "plunge from the home key of G Major onto an unstable B minor." It bends, he adds, the harmony toward the key of E minor, leading the listener to expect an E minor chord as the next one. O'Grady too explains the chord as a secondary dominant (V-of-vi) and Pollack arrives at the same conclusion. Volkert Kramarz (1983) and Tim Riley (1988: 86) both are less impressed. To them the trick is effective but only more of the same, as the Beatles had introduced their easy use of relative minor chords already in their previous songs. As Kramarz (1983) observes, the use of incidental chords in popular music is not new in itself. The unusual amount of these chords, however, certainly is innovative, as are the chord sequences themselves. Earlier on the style of popular music found some support in cadences, standard chord progressions like the turnaround [I -» vi -» IV -» V] and its many variants, and the chain of fifths or turn-back [VI7 -» II7 -» V7 -» I] (Van der Merwe, 1989). In the first few years of their career the Beatles discarded the support of these cadences (Kramarz, 1983: 132). At the start of their career as songwriters their favorite way of doing this, was by inserting unexpected chords. Later on, as a result, in their hands the cadences crumbled into pieces. Sometimes by turning into unpredictable chord sequences; sometimes to the effect of becoming "harmonic ostinato's," repeated combinations of just two chords (Middleton, 1990: 282). At the end of 1964, the songs on the album "Beatles for Sale" show that the Beatles could do without the support of these cadences. Piecing chords together seemed their way of composing. Or, as MacDonald (1994: 10) says: "In short, they had no preconceptions about the next chord, an openness which they consciously exploited (...)." 4 A diagonal tone grid. Improvising on what they had done before and adding new variations the Beatles' next chord always seemed to be arbitrary. Their choice of chords, of course, did not taper away totally at random, as this would have made their songs incomprehensible to their listeners. Every style of music needs some underlying structure and here the Beatles' songs are no exception. The first outlines of their style of composition are indicated by the very relative minors we've observed in "I Want To Hold Your Hand." The mutual relations between the tones of the basic chords (IV, I, V) and these relative minors (ii, vi, iii) show a diagonal structure (figure 1). Figure 1: Tone grid of the three basic chords Other favorite kinds of Beatles' chords can be added to this grid. The parallel minors (iv, i, v) form another cluster of chords the Beatles, seemingly arbitrarily, interjected into their chord progressions. A further conspicuous feature of their songs is the lavish use of relative (II, VI, III) and parallel (flat-VI, flat-III, flat-VII) Majors, which according to O'Grady (1983: 63-64) can be regarded as the most obvious harmonic innovation of the Beatles' compositions. Next to these, we sometimes even hear the relative minors (vii, #iv, #i) of the parallel Majors themselves. To this, of course, we can add the seventh chords, so popular in blues, country and rhythm and blues. Except for the last one, all these chord clusters can be fitted into a diagram by adding them to the diagonal structure. As a result a grid emerges in which chords sharing two tones with each other can be substituted for each other (figure 2). Figure 2: The diagonal tone grid of the Beatles' chord progressions Basically chords are built out of pure thirds and fifths. The greater their distance from the tone center or key, the more these pure tones do deviate from their counterparts in even temperament. That is why the key is so important in harmonic music, as is a restricted use of chordal material. Too sudden transitions summon the danger of sounding false. Therefore conventional harmonic music is usually restricted to the three basic chords, whose tone material can be expanded by means of standard cadences and more or less conventional modulations. The Beatles showed it could be done otherwise. By arranging their chord clusters into a diagonal relationship, they effectuated an equivocal positioning of chords and tonal material. As a premium the stock of chords in the diagonal grid offered the composers no less than 24 different tones for their melodies (see figure 3). Figure 3: Deviations of tone material from even temperament in cents [yellow: tones on lower line of diagonal grid (3-flat); dark yellow: tones on second line of diagonal grid (5); orange: tones on third line of diagonal grid (6); red: tones on upper line of diagonal grid (4-sharp)] In their songs the Beatles make proper use of their expanded chordal and tonal material. The new chords are employed for bewildering enharmonic changes or innovative modulations, like the minor fifth we encountered in "I Want To Hold Your Hand." Also the expanded tonal material is taken to advantage in the Beatles' compositions. In their melodies the Beatles liked to use note repetition (Flender & Heuger, 1996). These notes, however, were not always exactly the same. Often they jump through the tone grid to their enharmonic equivalents, causing subtile tonal differences. The expanded tonal material also accounts for the many false relations between adjacent chords in the Beatles' chord sequences by offering unsuspected, but fine leading notes. As an example, Pollack (1989, 2) points at the plagal cadence opening of "Eight Days A Week" [I -» II -» IV -» I]. In the transition of II -» IV the third of the E triad (G#) offers an unorthodox but excellent leading tone to the root (G) of the G triad. The difference between both tones amounts to 71 cent, less than three quarters of a tonal distance. As Kramarz (1983: 137) observes in his analysis of "Help!," the Beatles catch these notes of their expanded tonal material perfectly in their harmony singing, thereby glueing their unusual chords together in their melodies and reducing the tension between harmony and melody — a characteristic mark of the Beatles' songs (Wicke, 1982: 224). |
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Òåìà: Re: Äèëåòàíòñêèé âîïðîñ ïî ãàðìîíèè ó Áèòëç.
Âðåìÿ: 15.02.2009 20:12 |
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ïÿòü ñòðóí, íó èëè øåñòü äðàòü è ðâàòü
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>Äèëåòàíòñêèé âîïðîñ ïî ãàðìîíèè ó Áèòëç 
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Òåìà: Re: Äèëåòàíòñêèé âîïðîñ ïî ãàðìîíèè ó Áèòëç.
Âðåìÿ: 15.02.2009 23:41 |
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> Íà ñàìîì äåëå, äåéñòâèòåëüíî, Áèòëç ïðîñòî èñïîëüçîâàëè áëþçîâóþ ãàðìîíèþ. > Áëþçîâîé ãàðìîíèåé òàì è íå ïàõíåò. Õî÷ó ñàì ñåáå âîçðàçèòü. ß ïî-ïðåæíåìó ñ÷èòàþ, ÷òî äàííàÿ ãàðìîíèÿ íå îñíîâàíà íà áëþçå, íî ñ äðóãîé ñòîðîíû áëþç è íàòóðàëüíî-ëàäîâàÿ ãàðìîíèÿ èìåþò îáùíîñòü â èõ ìîäàëüíîé ñóùíîñòè. Îäíàêî áëþç - ýòî îñîáûé ñïåöèôè÷åñêèé ñëó÷àé, âîçìîæíî äàæå ñ ýëåìåíòîì ïîëèòîíàëüíîñòè), à íàòóðàëüíî-ëàäîâàÿ ãàðìîíèÿ áîëåå îáùèé ïðèíöèï (åùå áîëåå îáùèé - ìîäàëüíîñòü).  ëþáîì ñëó÷àå, íàâåðíîå ìîæíî ñêàçàòü, ÷òî êîãäà äâèæåíèå ãàðìîíèè îñóùåñòâëÿåòñÿ â ñîîòâåòñòâèè ñ ôóíêöèîíàëüíûìè ãàðìîíè÷åñêèìè òÿãîòåíèÿìè, ìû èìååì äåëî ñ ôóíêöèîíàëüíîé ãàðìîíèåé, à åñëè ïðîòèâ òÿãîòåíèé, òî íà ïåðåäíèé ïëàí âûñòóïàþò ëàäîâûå êðàñêè. ==================== NèêîëàéPEtrovi÷, à íå ïðîùå äàòü ññûëêó, ÷åì òóïî êîïèïàñòèòü îãðîìíûé èíîÿçû÷íûé òåêñò, äàæå íèêàê íå êîììåíòèðóÿ åãî? Òåì áîëåå îðèãèíàëüíàÿ ñòðàíèöà ñàéòà áîëåå ÷èòàáåëüíà è èíôîðìàòèâíà. Êîðî÷å, íå êîìèëüôî, îñîáåííî áåç óêàçàíèÿ èñòî÷íèêà. Êñòàòè, öèòàòà èç ñòàòüè("modal" songs): "...For that reason their songs often are called "modal" songs." Öèòàòà èç äðóãîé ñòàòüè ("modal harmonic flavor"): In spite of the V chord's ample appearance, the song retains a modal harmonic flavor due to the almost consistent use of Plagal (IV -> I) cadences and the way in which V seems to almost move to either IV (like in the blues) or to vi (like the classical deceptive cadence) instead of to I. |
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"îñòàíåòñÿ âîïðîñ î òîì, íàñêîëüêî àäåêâàòíî òîò èëè
èíîé ó÷àñòíèê ôîðóìà îöåíèâàåò ñâîé ðåçóëüòàò"(ñ) |
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Òåìà: Re: Äèëåòàíòñêèé âîïðîñ ïî ãàðìîíèè ó Áèòëç.
Âðåìÿ: 21.02.2009 12:26 |
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Ìîñêâà
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>>Äèëåòàíòñêèé âîïðîñ ïî ãàðìîíèè ó Áèòëç > > 
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| Àâòîð |
Òåìà: Re: Äèëåòàíòñêèé âîïðîñ ïî ãàðìîíèè ó Áèòëç.
Âðåìÿ: 15.03.2009 20:53 |
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