RSS
Âû íå çàðåãèñòðèðîâàíû Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ | Ïîèñê | Âîéòè

Ðýï è õèï-õîï

Çàäàòü íîâóþ òåìó
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 15.10.2006 10:13 
Ñàíêò-Ïåòåðáóðã
Canon

Êòî-íèáóäü ìîæåò íàïèñàòü ñ ÷åãî è ãäå âñå íà÷àëîñü? êà ðàçâèâàëîñü?
The future is not set, there is no fate but what we make for ourselves.
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 15.10.2006 12:37 



Çíà÷èò òàê â ñåðåäèíå 70õ ïîÿâèëèñü äèñêîòåêè, íà íèõ îòäûõàëà ìîëîäåæü â êîíöå ðàáî÷åé íåäåëè. Îäíàêî òàêîé îòäûõ íå ïîäõîäèë äëÿ íåêîòîðûõ ñëîÿõ îáùåñòâà.
Áûëà ñîçäàíà òàíöåâàëüíàÿ ìóçûêà äîñòóïíàÿ âñåì. Ðîäèíà ðýïà-áåäíûé ðàéîí Íüþ-Éîðêà-Þæíûé Áðîíêñ.Èìåííî çäåñü â 70õ ãîäàõ âîçíèêëî ÿâëåíèå êîòîðîå ïîçäíåå ñòàëè èìåíîâàòü êóëüòóðîé õèï-õîï.
Êëþ÷åâàÿ ôèãóðà â èñòîðèè-Êóë Äè-Äæåé Õåðê, èìåííî îí íà÷àë èñïîëüçîâàòü ëóïèíã-öèêëè÷åñêîå âîñïðîèçâåäåíèå îïðåäåë¸íîãî çâóêîêîâîãî ôðàãìåíòà.
Êð¸ñòíûì îòöîì ðýïà ñ÷èòàþò Ãðýíäìàñòåðà Ôëåøà. Îí ïåðåíÿë òåõíèêè Õåðêà è óñîâåðøåíñòâîâàë å¸.
Ìíå ïðîäîëæàòü?
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 15.10.2006 12:41 



äàòü âûì ññûëêè øòîëè...
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 15.10.2006 12:43 



Ìàêêî, ýòî èç ìóçûêàëüíîé ýíöèêëîïåäèè âû÷èòàëà :idea2:
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 15.10.2006 13:47 



íó â îáùåì ôèãíÿ òàì íàïèñàíà â îáùåì-òî)
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 15.10.2006 13:47 



"äà-äà â îáùåì-òî îòëè÷íî" (Ñ) ïàóãÚ
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 15.10.2006 13:50 



Áëèí, ÿ ïèñàëà â ñîêðàùåííîì âàðèàíòå è ïîëîâèíó ïî-ïàìÿòè, à âîîáùå çà÷¸òíàÿ êíèãà :idea2:
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 15.10.2006 13:57 



åñëè íå çàáóäó, òî ïîææý âûëîæó ññûëêè
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 15.10.2006 23:41 
Saint-Petersburg
Make it Funky!

Ìàêêî, äàâàé ñöûëîê! =)
I know it's only Rock'n'Roll, but I like it!
http://www.jablog.ru/
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 16.10.2006 14:26 
Âîñòî÷íîå Èçìàéëîâî
ñåìïëåð, ñìû÷îê è êàíèôîëü

ßìàéêà ðóëèò!
Ìåíÿ ïóòåí îáûäëèë, ÿ ïîýòîìó â ïîäúåçäå ññó (Âåïðü)
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Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 16.10.2006 15:05 



íó äà)
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 25.10.2006 07:21 
Ìîñêâà
Takamine F-375S, Taylor 514ce

Àôðèêà! Òàì âñ¸ ðîäèëîñü
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 03.04.2007 11:19 
Ìîñêâà


èíòåðåñíî, êàêèì áûë õèï-õîï â ïåðâîçäàííîì âèäå...
íàâåðíî áðþêè êë¸ø, íàìàçàííûå õàðè...)
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 03.04.2007 11:29 
Âîñòî÷íîå Èçìàéëîâî
ñåìïëåð, ñìû÷îê è êàíèôîëü

ãâåñò, íå ïóòîé õèï-õîï ñ êàôüéîíûì ôàíêîì!
Ìåíÿ ïóòåí îáûäëèë, ÿ ïîýòîìó â ïîäúåçäå ññó (Âåïðü)
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Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 03.04.2007 18:11 
Ìîñêâà


mogillazz,
à íó äà)
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 15.04.2007 16:24 



Âîîáùåòî ðýï, à â ÷àñòíîñòè Õèï-Õîï è ïîø¸ë îò ôàíêà! Èäåþ Õèï-Õîï Êóëüòóðû çàâ¸ç Êóë Õ¸ðê, DJ èç ßìàéêè! Íà ßìàéêå åñòü òðàäèöèÿ âûñòóïàòü íà óëèöå è ëþáîé æåëàþùèé ìîã ñïåòü! Òåïåðü ýòî ïðîñòîé áàòë! Ïîòîì ïîøëè ïîëóïîäâàëüíûå êëóáû, ãäå áûë Brek-Dance & Rap! Áîëåå ïîäðîáíî ìîæíî ïðî÷èòàòü çäåñü: http://hiphop.5bb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=42
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 15.04.2007 16:30 



îò ôàíêà ïîøëî...
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 15.04.2007 16:32 



à ôàíê îò äæàçà, äèêñèëýíäà, à äæàç îò àôðèêàíñêîãî ôîëüêëîðà ò.ä. :idea2:
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 16.04.2007 11:02 
Âîñòî÷íîå Èçìàéëîâî
ñåìïëåð, ñìû÷îê è êàíèôîëü

Ãðóçîâèê, è òû òóäà æå?
Ìåíÿ ïóòåí îáûäëèë, ÿ ïîýòîìó â ïîäúåçäå ññó (Âåïðü)
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Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 16.04.2007 17:11 



À òàê è åñòü! Âåñü ñòèëü ÷¸ðíûõ ïîø¸ë èç Àôðèêè! Âñå êîðíè òàì!
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 16.04.2007 17:47 
Âîñòî÷íîå Èçìàéëîâî
ñåìïëåð, ñìû÷îê è êàíèôîëü

Bad Beat, â Àôðèêå íîñÿò àäèêè, áåéñáîëêè è ãàéêè çîëîòûå?
Ìåíÿ ïóòåí îáûäëèë, ÿ ïîýòîìó â ïîäúåçäå ññó (Âåïðü)
lick this post!
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 17.04.2007 17:51 



Òû íå ïóòàé êîðíè è òî, ÷òî ñåé÷àñ! Ñåé÷àñ ãëîáàëüíîå ñìåøåíèå ñòèëåé! À ðàíüøå ýòî òîêà âñ¸ çàðîæäàëîñü! È êñòàòè ìíîãèå àêñåñóàðû íûíåøíèõ ðýïåðîâ - ýòî Àôðèêà ÷èñòîé âîäû! Óòî÷íÿé èíôîðìàöèþ, ïåðåä òåì êàê ïèñàòü!
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 18.04.2007 10:36 
Âîñòî÷íîå Èçìàéëîâî
ñåìïëåð, ñìû÷îê è êàíèôîëü

Bad Beat, ìíå âàùå íåïîíÿòíà òåíäåíöèÿ ðàññìàòðèâàòü ñîâðåìåííûõ ïðåäñòàâèòåëåé êàêîé-ëèáî ñóáêóëüòóðû êàê ïðÿìûõ íàñëåäíèêîâ êîíêðåòíûõ äðåâíèõ öèâèëèçàöèé. ýòî âñ¸ çàáëóæäåíèå è âûñîñàíî õç èç ÷åãî.
â õèï-õîïå íåò øàìàíñêèõ òàíöåâ, æåðòâîïðèíàøåíèé è ïðî÷èõ ìíîãî÷èñëåííûõ òðàäèöèé àôðèêàíñêèõ íàðîäîâ. à êîðíè... - åñòü òàêàÿ ãðóïïà :)
òû ïîéìè, ÷òî êóëüòóðû â ñîâðåìåííîì ìèðå íàñòîëüêî ïåðåïëåòåíû äðóã ñ äðóãîì, ÷òî âûäåëÿòü êàêóþ-òî îäíó è ñâÿçâàòü åå ñ äðåâíèì ìèðîì áåññìûñëåíî. òû õî÷åøü ïåðåñêî÷èòü òûñÿ÷åëåòèÿ ðàçâèòèÿ àôðèêàíñêîé êóëüòóðû? èíòåãðàöèþ èíûõ êóëüòóð? àññèìèëÿöèþ íåãðîâ â àìåðèêå? è íàïðÿìóþ ñâÿçàòü åå ñ ñîâðåìåííûì àìåðèêàíñêèì õèï-õîïîì? íäÿ...
òàì îáùåãî - òîëüêî öâåò êîæè (Ýíèìåì íå â ùåò)
Ìåíÿ ïóòåí îáûäëèë, ÿ ïîýòîìó â ïîäúåçäå ññó (Âåïðü)
lick this post!
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 18.04.2007 17:27 
Âîñòî÷íîå Èçìàéëîâî
ñåìïëåð, ñìû÷îê è êàíèôîëü

îñíîâà õèï-õîïà - ðå÷èòàòèâ. â àôðèêå åãî íå áûëî (õîòÿ è íå ôàêò)
Ìåíÿ ïóòåí îáûäëèë, ÿ ïîýòîìó â ïîäúåçäå ññó (Âåïðü)
lick this post!
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 18.04.2007 19:39 



Îîîî...çäåñü òû îøèáàåøüñÿ, íå òîêà â àôðèêå åñòü ðå÷èòàòèâ, íî è â Ðîññèè. Âåäü ðóññêèå íàðîäíûå ÷àñòóøêè îò÷àñòè òîæå ìîæíî ïðèïîäíåñòè ê ñåãîäíåøíåìó ðýïó! ßìàéêà ïî òâîåìó íå Àôðèêà? Âåäü îòòóäà ïðèåõàë ðîäîíà÷àëüíèê, âåäü îòòóäà îí çàâ¸ç òðàäèöèþ óëèöû, à íå êëóáà è ò.ä. Íà÷àëüíîå ñòàíîâëåíèå áðåê-äàíñà ïîøëî îò àôðèêàíñêèõ òàíöåâ (íå ïîìíþ êàê íàçûâàåòñÿ, íî ýò òî÷íî). â êîíöå 19 â. â êàêîì òî øòàòå ïðîâîäèëèñü ÿðìàðêè, ãäå òàíöåâàëè àôðèêàíñêèå ðàáû, ïî ñòèëþ ïîõîæåìó íà ðàííèé áðåéê! Êàêáû òû íå îòíîñèëñÿ ê Àôðèêå, íî ñòàíîâëåíèå Õèï-Õîï êóëüòóðû ïîøëî èìåííî îòòóäà!
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 20.04.2007 09:56 
Âîñòî÷íîå Èçìàéëîâî
ñåìïëåð, ñìû÷îê è êàíèôîëü

Bad Beat, ßìàéêà - íå Àôðèêà! ó÷è ãåîãðàôèþ äåòêà!
è åñòü îòäåëüíûé ïëàñò êóëüòóðû íàðîäîâ Êàðèáñêîãî áàññåéíà (êóäà è âõîäèò ßìàéêà ê òâîåìó ñâåäåíèþ).
ýòà êóëüòóðà íå òàêàÿ ñòàðàÿ êàê Àôðèêàíñêàÿ, è êîíå÷íî æå èìååò àôðèêàíñêèå êîðíè, íî íå òîëüêî àôðèêàíñêèå! ïîòîìó îíà è îòëè÷àåòñÿ îò íåå.

ÿ ê òîìó, ÷òî ïî òâîèì ìûñëÿì - âñÿ ìèðîâàÿ êóëüòóðà èìååò àôðèêàíñêèå êîðíè, ò.ê. ïåðâûå ëþäè ïîÿâèëèñü èìåííî òàì :)
Ìåíÿ ïóòåí îáûäëèë, ÿ ïîýòîìó â ïîäúåçäå ññó (Âåïðü)
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Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 20.04.2007 19:05 



ß ãîâîðèë, ÷òî íå âñÿ ìèðîâàÿ êóëüòóðà, ÿ ãîâîðèë: "Âåñü ñòèëü ÷¸ðíûõ ïîø¸ë èç Àôðèêè" ÷èòàé âíèìàòåëüíåé! À âàùå ìíå äî ####û, ãäå ßìàéêà, ïðîñòî ÿ çíàþ, ÷òî Soul, Jazz, Rap è ò.ä. èìååò àôðèêàíñêèå êîðíè! Ìîæåò ÿ è íå ãåîãðàô, íî èñòîðèþ ðàçâèòèÿ Õèï-Õîïà îò ñàìîãî íà÷àëà è äî ñåãîäíÿøíèõ âðåì¸í çóáðèë ïî íåñêîëüêó ðàç! È òàì ÷¸ðíûì ïî áåëîìó ñêàçàíî, ÷òî âñÿ ýòà êóëüòóðà çàðîæäàëàñü îò àôðèêàíñêèõ ðàáîâ è áåæåíöåâ ñ ßìàéêè! À Êóë Õ¸ðê è áûë àôðèêàíöåì ñ îñòðîâà ßìàéêè! È ÿ çíàþ, ÷òî ßìàéêà íàõîäèòñÿ â öåíòðå Êàðèáñêãî ìîðÿ ìåæäó Þæíîé è Ñåâåðíîé Àìåðèêîé, ïðîñòî îïå÷àòàëñÿ è íåòàê ïîëó÷èëîñü êàê õîòåë ñêàçàòü!
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 21.04.2007 10:52 
Âîñòî÷íîå Èçìàéëîâî
ñåìïëåð, ñìû÷îê è êàíèôîëü

Bad Beat, ìû ïî ðàçíîìó ñìîòðèì íà èñòîðèþ. ÿ íå êîïàþñü äî ñåäüìîãî êîëåíà, ò.ê. íå âèæó â ýòîì ñìûñëà. ñòàâèòü â äîñòèæåíèå àôðèêàíöåâ äæàç èëè õèï-õîï - ãëóïî. ò.ê. íå ïîïàäè îíè â äðóãóþ ñðåäó îáèòàíèå è ïîä âëèÿíèå äðóãèõ êóëüòóðíûõ òå÷åíèé (ñî ñâîåé áàçîé) - íèôèãà áû ó íèõ íå ïîëó÷èëîñü. ñ äðóãîé ñòîðîíû - íå ñïîðþ. îïðåäåëåííûé âêëàä îíè âíåñëè.
Ìåíÿ ïóòåí îáûäëèë, ÿ ïîýòîìó â ïîäúåçäå ññó (Âåïðü)
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Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 21.04.2007 12:28 



Íî õîòü ê ÷åìó òî îäíîìó ìû ïðèøëè âìåñòå! Ñ òîáîé ñîãëàñåí, ÷òî åñëè áû îíè íå ïîïàëè â Àìåðèêó â òî âðåìÿ, òî âîçìîæíî è íè ÷åãî è íå áûëî, íî è êîðíè çàáûâàòü íåëüçÿ!
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 27.04.2007 22:47 
Ñàíêò-Ïåòåðáóðã
mixing console

> à ôàíê îò äæàçà, äèêñèëýíäà, à äæàç îò àôðèêàíñêîãî ôîëüêëîðà ò.ä.

Äæàç, ðåáÿòà, îò êàíòðè ïîø¸ë - ýòî äàâíî âûó÷èòü ïîðà!!!
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 28.04.2007 10:37 
Âîñòî÷íîå Èçìàéëîâî
ñåìïëåð, ñìû÷îê è êàíèôîëü

tselischev, ãèíåêîëîãè÷åñêîå äåðåâî ñðóáèë?
Ìåíÿ ïóòåí îáûäëèë, ÿ ïîýòîìó â ïîäúåçäå ññó (Âåïðü)
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Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 29.04.2007 01:16 



Åñëè íè êàê íå ðàçâèâàëîñü, òî íå áûëî ñòîêà ñòèëåé â ìóçûêå
Àâòîð
Òåìà: umpiw
Âðåìÿ: 25.05.2007 01:22 



http://a28hosting.info/new-jersey-food-bank/ <a href="http://a28hosting.info/new-jersey-food-bank/">New jersey food bank</a> http://a28hosting.info/surrey-food-bank/ <a href="http://a28hosting.info/surrey-food-bank/">Surrey food bank</a> http://a28hosting.info/bay-area-food-bank/ <a href="http://a28hosting.info/bay-area-food-bank/">Bay area food bank</a> http://a28hosting.info/colorado-food-banks/ <a href="http://a28hosting.info/colorado-food-banks/">Colorado food banks</a> http://a28hosting.info/regional-food-bank/ <a href="http://a28hosting.info/regional-food-bank/">Regional food bank</a> http://a28hosting.info/food-bank-virginia/ <a href="http://a28hosting.info/food-bank-virginia/">Food bank virginia</a> http://a28hosting.info/ct-food-banks/ <a href="http://a28hosting.info/ct-food-banks/">Ct food banks</a> http://a28hosting.info/windsor-food-bank/ <a href="http://a28hosting.info/windsor-food-bank/">Windsor food bank</a> http://a28hosting.info/arkansas-food-bank/ <a href="http://a28hosting.info/arkansas-food-bank/">Arkansas food bank</a> http://a28hosting.info/food-bank-of-iowa/ <a href="http://a28hosting.info/food-bank-of-iowa/">Food bank of iowa</a> http://a28hosting.info/austin-food-bank/ <a href="http://a28hosting.info/austin-food-bank/">Austin food bank</a> http://a28hosting.info/vancouver-food-bank/ <a href="http://a28hosting.info/vancouver-food-bank/">Vancouver food bank</a> http://a28hosting.info/golden-harvest-food-bank/ <a href="http://a28hosting.info/golden-harvest-food-bank/">Golden harvest food bank</a> http://a28hosting.info/food-bank-phoenix/ <a href="http://a28hosting.info/food-bank-phoenix/">Food bank phoenix</a> http://a28hosting.info/angel-food-bank/ <a href="http://a28hosting.info/angel-food-bank/">Angel food bank</a> http://a28hosting.info/food-bank-location/ <a href="http://a28hosting.info/food-bank-location/">Food bank location</a> http://a28hosting.info/alaska-food-banks/ <a href="http://a28hosting.info/alaska-food-banks/">Alaska food banks</a> http://a28hosting.info/boston-food-bank/ <a href="http://a28hosting.info/boston-food-bank/">Boston food bank</a> http://a28hosting.info/florida-food-banks/ <a href="http://a28hosting.info/florida-food-banks/">Florida food banks</a> http://a28hosting.info/connecticut-food-bank/ <a href="http://a28hosting.info/connecticut-food-bank/">Connecticut food bank</a>
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 25.05.2007 01:33 
SPb
Roland MC-505/KORG EA-1/Korg DS/LSDJ/Turntables & Vinyls

âîáùå ñ Ìîãèëëàçîì àáñîëþòíî ñîãëàñåí.ñ ßìàéêè ê íàì ïðèøëà ïî÷òè âñÿ ïîï-ìóçûêà!è íå çàáûâàéòå,÷òî íà ßìàéêå áûëî ÷åòûðå ñòèëÿ ìóçûêè:ðýããè,ñêà,ðîê ñòýäè(íå óâåðåí,ìîæåò ðýããèòîí,çàáûâàþ ïîñòîÿííî),è ÐÀÃÃÀ!!!È âîáùå âñÿ êóëüòóðà äèäæåèíãà 100% ßìàéñêàÿ.
è ñíà÷àëà áûë áðýéê-áèò,à ïîòîì óæå õèï-õîï èç íåãî âûøåë.
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 30.07.2007 23:13 



umpiw, +1
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 31.08.2007 22:30 
Ìîñêâà


ãûûû, íà ïðîøëîé íåäåëå ïî Äèñêàâåðè ñìîòðåë ïðîãó ïðî íà÷àëî ðåããåé....òàê âîò òîãäà ÷óâàêè ïèñàëè ðåããåé è âûïóñêàëè ïëàñòèíêè (íà ÿìàéêå), ñ îäíîé ñòîðîíû ïëàñòèíêè áûëà ïîëíàÿ âåðñèÿ ñîíãîâ - à ñ äðóãîé ìèíóñà (áåç âîêàëà), è íàðîä ëþáèë ïåòü ïîä ìèíóñà...à ïîòîì ÷óâàêè ïîäóìàëè è íà÷àëè íà ýòè ìèíóñà ÷èòàòü, äåëàòü ðàçëè÷íûå ñýìïëû è òä......)))


ýòî ïî âåðñèè äèñêàâåðè =))) - èìõî âñ¸ ëîãè÷íî
â äæàçå íå íàñòðàèâàþòñÿ !
© JazzyFunky
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 01.09.2007 06:43 
Ìîñêâà
***********

umpiw, ïðàâ êñòàòè :idea2:
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Èñòîðèÿ õèï-õîïà
Âðåìÿ: 01.09.2007 10:07 



>îò ôàíêà ïîøëî...
Ãðóçîâèê, :agree:
ìíîãî èõ ñëûøàë êîíñòàíòèíîïëåé - âñ¸ ãoâíî áûëî êàêîåòà íåäîèñòàíáóëîâñêîå © Raskladnoy
 ýòîò ôîðóì ìîãóò ïèñàòü òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûå ïîëüçîâàòåëè!