Àâòîð |
Òåìà: Äåíü ðîæäåíèÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðû, âîçìîæíî
Âðåìÿ: 24.04.2013 10:38 |
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Ìîñêâà Strat, ASAT, SG, Takamine |
Âîò ñòðîêà, êîòîðàÿ ïîäáèëà ìåíÿ íà ñîçäàíèå òåìû: Leo Fender's patent for his 1st electric guitar was filed on this day in 1951. (ðå÷ü î 23 àïðåëÿ) Òàêèì îáðàçîì, â÷åðà, 23 àïðåëÿ, ìîæåò ñ÷èòàòüñÿ âàæíûì äëÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðèçìà äíåì: êîãäà Ëåî ïîäàë çàÿâêó íà ïàòåíò ïåðâîé â ìèðå ìàññîâî âûïóñêàþùåéñÿ öåëüíîêîðïóñíîé ãèòàðû. ×òî âû äóìàåòå ïî ïîâîäó òî÷êè îòñ÷åòà? Ðîæäåíèåì ãðóïïû òðàäèöèîííî ñ÷èòàåòñÿ äàòà ïåðâîãî êîíöåðòà. ×òî ñ÷èòàòü äàòîé âîçíèêíîâåíèÿ ýëåêòðè÷åñêèõ ãèòàð? |
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Strat, ASAT, SG->Budda-> Cmatmods Signa Comp-> Zendrive->OCD->Fulltone '70 -> MXR Phase 90-> T-Rex Tremster-> RC Booster-> Strymon Brigadier-> Strymon Blue Sky// TS-808->BJFe Folk Fuzz->Wampler Plexi Drive-> Ibanez Flanger->EHX Pulsar->Malekko 616
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Àâòîð |
Òåìà: Re: Äåíü ðîæäåíèÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðû, âîçìîæíî
Âðåìÿ: 24.04.2013 10:40 |
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×àïàåâñê Vintage V100IT |
ïðèäåðæèâàþñü ìíåíèÿ, ÷òî äàòîé ðîæäåíèÿ ÿâëÿåòñÿ äàòà ñîçäàíèÿ â æèâóþ 1 ýêçåìïëÿðà è íå âàæíî ñ ïàòåíòîì èëè áåç îíîãî, íî òî ìîå ñêðîìíîå ìíåíèå | |
Vintage V100IT->AMT Stonehead-50-4->Korg Pandora Stomp->1x12 Legend128
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Àâòîð |
Òåìà: Re: Äåíü ðîæäåíèÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðû, âîçìîæíî
Âðåìÿ: 24.04.2013 10:48 |
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ãîðîä îðóæåéíèêîâ õðþêàþùèé ìîíñòð |
>çàÿâêó íà ïàòåíò ïåðâîé â ìèðå ìàññîâî âûïóñêàþùåéñÿ öåëüíîêîðïóñíîé ãèòàðû. íó, èìåííî öåëüíîêîðïóñíîé. Ñìîòðÿ, ÷òî ñ÷èòàòü èìåííî ýëåêòðîãèòàðîé. È äæàç áàíêè òîæå ýëåêòðîãèòàðû, è ãèòàðà ïðîñòî ñ äàò÷èêîì óæå ïðàêòè÷åñêè ýëåêòðîãèòàðà. Ñêîðåå âñåãî, ýòî ðîæäåíèÿ íîâîãî ïðåäïðèÿòèÿ - ôîðìû Ôåíäåð. |
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" Ïàðàíîèê - ýòî òîò, êòî íåìíîãî ðàçáèðàåòñÿ â òîì, ÷òî ïðîèñõîäèò âîêðóã, à ïñèõ - ýòî òîò, êòî òîëüêî ÷òî îêîí÷àòåëüíî âî âñåì ðàçîáðàëñÿ." (ñ) Óèëüÿì Áåððîóç
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Àâòîð |
Òåìà: Re: Äåíü ðîæäåíèÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðû, âîçìîæíî
Âðåìÿ: 24.04.2013 11:10 |
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Ìîñêâà Gretsch 6120 |
Äåíü Ðîæäåíüå Òåëåêàñòåðà! | |
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Àâòîð |
Òåìà: Re: Äåíü ðîæäåíèÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðû, âîçìîæíî
Âðåìÿ: 24.04.2013 11:16 |
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Ìîñêâà Strat, ASAT, SG, Takamine |
Òóê , áëèí. âñ¸. íàäî òåëåêàñòåð-ïàòè ïðîâîäèòü. ïðîñðàëè âñå ïîëèìåðû óæå... | |
Strat, ASAT, SG->Budda-> Cmatmods Signa Comp-> Zendrive->OCD->Fulltone '70 -> MXR Phase 90-> T-Rex Tremster-> RC Booster-> Strymon Brigadier-> Strymon Blue Sky// TS-808->BJFe Folk Fuzz->Wampler Plexi Drive-> Ibanez Flanger->EHX Pulsar->Malekko 616
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Àâòîð |
Òåìà: Re: Äåíü ðîæäåíèÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðû, âîçìîæíî
Âðåìÿ: 24.04.2013 11:21 |
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Ìîñêâà Gretsch 6120 |
>Òóê , áëèí. âñ¸. íàäî òåëåêàñòåð-ïàòè ïðîâîäèòü. ïðîñðàëè âñå ïîëèìåðû óæå... Ïîäàðè ìíå òåëåêàñòåð, ïîó÷àñòâóþ |
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Àâòîð |
Òåìà: Re: Äåíü ðîæäåíèÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðû, âîçìîæíî
Âðåìÿ: 24.04.2013 11:25 |
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Ìîñêâà Fender Stratocaster |
Ñîãëàñåí ñ Ä.Ð. òåëåêàñòåðà. Èëè öåëüíîäåðåâÿííûõ ãèòàð. Èëè ïðîñòî, åù¸ îäèí ïîâîä âûïèòü |
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Fender Stratocaster => VOX Big Bad Wah => Boss CS-2 => Boss CE-2 => Boss SD-1 => Boss HM-2 => Big Muff Pi => Boss GE-7 => Boss DD-2 => MXR Phase 90 EVH => Øèôòóÿ... Êàê-òî òàê, ïîêà=)
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Àâòîð |
Òåìà: Re: Äåíü ðîæäåíèÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðû, âîçìîæíî
Âðåìÿ: 24.04.2013 13:55 |
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>. íàäî òåëåêàñòåð-ïàòè ïðîâîäèòü. êîíå÷íî íàäî âîçüìó ñâîé Õîðàéçîí ñ îòñå÷êîé è áóäåò êðàñíóøíûé òåëåê â ôîðìå ñòðàòà ñî ñêâîçíûì ãðèôîì çàòî ñòðóíû ÷åðåç êîðïóñ êàê ó òåëåêà |
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Àâòîð |
Òåìà: Re: Äåíü ðîæäåíèÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðû, âîçìîæíî
Âðåìÿ: 24.04.2013 17:49 |
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Âîðîíåæ Gibson LP Custom |
Äà óæææ!Êðóòàÿ ãèòàðà!ß Äàæå íà íåé èãðàþ !õîòÿ åñòü Ãèïñ è ñòðààò!Ëþáëþ Ìóæèê Êóõîííóþ ðàêîâèíó äëÿ ïîïñû!Ò å ñòðàò! | ||
êåïï
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Àâòîð |
Òåìà: Re: Äåíü ðîæäåíèÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðû, âîçìîæíî
Âðåìÿ: 25.04.2013 10:16 |
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Peavey 00805560 neck+explorer body |
÷òîá íe ñîçäaâaòü îòäeëüíî òeìó: íèêîãäa íe èíòeðeñîâaëñÿ âeëè÷èíîé áýíäa. Âîò, ïðèïåðëî. ×àñòî ñëûøó, ïîäòÿæêà íà òîí. ß ïðîáóþ òÿíóòü ñòðóíó ïî ìàêñèìóìó, ïðîâåðÿþ ïî òþíåðó, íó íèêàê íå ïîëó÷àåòñÿ õîòÿ áû íà òîí óâåëè÷èòü. À ëþäè è íà áîëüøå òÿíóò) Îáúÿñíèòå!) |
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Àâòîð |
Òåìà: Re: Äåíü ðîæäåíèÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðû, âîçìîæíî
Âðåìÿ: 25.04.2013 10:19 |
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Ìîñêâà Strat, ASAT, SG, Takamine |
sanyabass , à ÷òî òåáÿ ïîáóäèëî èìåííî â ýòîé òåìå çàäàâàòü âîïðîñ? | |
Strat, ASAT, SG->Budda-> Cmatmods Signa Comp-> Zendrive->OCD->Fulltone '70 -> MXR Phase 90-> T-Rex Tremster-> RC Booster-> Strymon Brigadier-> Strymon Blue Sky// TS-808->BJFe Folk Fuzz->Wampler Plexi Drive-> Ibanez Flanger->EHX Pulsar->Malekko 616
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Àâòîð |
Òåìà: Re: Äåíü ðîæäåíèÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðû, âîçìîæíî
Âðåìÿ: 25.04.2013 17:31 |
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ìîæåò, äðóãèå ëþäè ýòî íå íà áàñó äåëàþò? | |
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Àâòîð |
Òåìà: Re: Äåíü ðîæäåíèÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðû, âîçìîæíî
Âðåìÿ: 25.04.2013 22:28 |
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Ìîñêâà. |
Òàêèì îáðàçîì, â÷åðà, 23 àïðåëÿ, ìîæåò ñ÷èòàòüñÿ âàæíûì äëÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðèçìà äíåì: êîãäà Ëåî ïîäàë çàÿâêó íà ïàòåíò ïåðâîé â ìèðå ìàññîâî âûïóñêàþùåéñÿ öåëüíîêîðïóñíîé ãèòàðû. òîãäà óæ äåíü ðîæäåíèÿ ôèðìû Fender. __________ sanyabass , à ÷òî òåáÿ ïîáóäèëî èìåííî â ýòîé òåìå çàäàâàòü âîïðîñ? |
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Àâòîð |
Òåìà: Re: Äåíü ðîæäåíèÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðû, âîçìîæíî
Âðåìÿ: 25.04.2013 22:45 |
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Pey whiskey Love siski |
>÷òîá íe ñîçäaâaòü îòäeëüíî òeìó: >íèêîãäa íe èíòeðeñîâaëñÿ âeëè÷èíîé áýíäa. Âîò, ïðèïåðëî. >×àñòî ñëûøó, ïîäòÿæêà íà òîí. ß ïðîáóþ òÿíóòü ñòðóíó ïî ìàêñèìóìó, ïðîâåðÿþ ïî òþíåðó, íó íèêàê íå ïîëó÷àåòñÿ õîòÿ áû íà òîí óâåëè÷èòü. À ëþäè è íà áîëüøå òÿíóò) Îáúÿñíèòå!) Çíà÷ ñëàáàê, åøü êàøó Íà 1,5 òîíà òÿíåòñÿ âïîëíå ñåáå. |
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>ñpaòü ñåë, è âûëåòåëî âñ¸ èç ãîëîâû (ñ)Äîðåìèäîðåäî
>ÿ ñïåðâà ïîìíèë, à ïîòîì ïåðåñòàë (ñ)Äîðåìèäîðåäî |
Àâòîð |
Òåìà: Re: Äåíü ðîæäåíèÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðû, âîçìîæíî
Âðåìÿ: 26.04.2013 01:08 |
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Ìîñêâà |
>÷òîá íe ñîçäaâaòü îòäeëüíî òeìó: >íèêîãäa íe èíòeðeñîâaëñÿ âeëè÷èíîé áýíäa. Âîò, ïðèïåðëî. >×àñòî ñëûøó, ïîäòÿæêà íà òîí. ß ïðîáóþ òÿíóòü ñòðóíó ïî ìàêñèìóìó, ïðîâåðÿþ ïî òþíåðó, íó íèêàê íå ïîëó÷àåòñÿ õîòÿ áû íà òîí óâåëè÷èòü. À ëþäè è íà áîëüøå òÿíóò) Îáúÿñíèòå!) ó òÿ äèêî áîëüøîãî êàëèáðà ñòðóíû? ïîñòàâü ïîìåíüøå 9-êó, 10-êó, òÿíóòü áåíäû ýòîæ îñíîâà îñíîâ. è ïîëòîðà òÿíóò è íà 2 |
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Àâòîð |
Òåìà: Re: Äåíü ðîæäåíèÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðû, âîçìîæíî
Âðåìÿ: 26.04.2013 01:20 |
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Pey whiskey Love siski |
>>÷òîá íe ñîçäaâaòü îòäeëüíî òeìó: >>íèêîãäa íe èíòeðeñîâaëñÿ âeëè÷èíîé áýíäa. Âîò, ïðèïåðëî. >>×àñòî ñëûøó, ïîäòÿæêà íà òîí. ß ïðîáóþ òÿíóòü ñòðóíó ïî ìàêñèìóìó, ïðîâåðÿþ ïî òþíåðó, íó íèêàê íå ïîëó÷àåòñÿ õîòÿ áû íà òîí óâåëè÷èòü. À ëþäè è íà áîëüøå òÿíóò) Îáúÿñíèòå!) >ó òÿ äèêî áîëüøîãî êàëèáðà ñòðóíû? ïîñòàâü ïîìåíüøå 9-êó, 10-êó, òÿíóòü áåíäû ýòîæ îñíîâà îñíîâ. è ïîëòîðà òÿíóò è íà 2 êòî-òî òàì íà îêòàâó ïîäòÿãèâàë(åò), íàïîìíèòå |
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>ñpaòü ñåë, è âûëåòåëî âñ¸ èç ãîëîâû (ñ)Äîðåìèäîðåäî
>ÿ ñïåðâà ïîìíèë, à ïîòîì ïåðåñòàë (ñ)Äîðåìèäîðåäî |
Àâòîð |
Òåìà: Re: Äåíü ðîæäåíèÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðû, âîçìîæíî
Âðåìÿ: 26.04.2013 08:25 |
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ãîðîä îðóæåéíèêîâ õðþêàþùèé ìîíñòð |
>Çíà÷ ñëàáàê, åøü êàøó >Íà 1,5 òîíà òÿíåòñÿ âïîëíå ñåáå. íà áîñó? >sanyabass > ÅÀDG Bass |
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" Ïàðàíîèê - ýòî òîò, êòî íåìíîãî ðàçáèðàåòñÿ â òîì, ÷òî ïðîèñõîäèò âîêðóã, à ïñèõ - ýòî òîò, êòî òîëüêî ÷òî îêîí÷àòåëüíî âî âñåì ðàçîáðàëñÿ." (ñ) Óèëüÿì Áåððîóç
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Àâòîð |
Òåìà: Re: Äåíü ðîæäåíèÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðû, âîçìîæíî
Âðåìÿ: 26.04.2013 10:55 |
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Ìîñêîâñêèå çàäâîðêè. Ïàëî÷êè ñàìîïàëî÷êè |
Âñåãäà ñ÷èòàë, ÷òî ïåðâàÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðà áûëà ñîçäàíà Ïîëîì Áèãñáè â 1948 ãîäó äëÿ Ìåðëè Òðåâèñà òåëåê - ýòî åãî äîíåëüçÿ óïðîùåííàÿ äëÿ ïîòî÷íîãî ïðîèçâîäñòâî êîïèÿ èçíà÷àëüíî |
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"òû òàê ãîâîðèøü, áóäòî óáèéñòâî æèâîãî ñóùåñòâà - ýòî ÷òî-òî ïëîõîå" © Ëåáåäèíûé õðóñò
"It never ceases to amaze me, people in an effects forum complaining about somebody using too many effects" © |
Àâòîð |
Òåìà: Re: Äåíü ðîæäåíèÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðû, âîçìîæíî
Âðåìÿ: 26.04.2013 11:14 |
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Ìîñêâà Fuzz Faces |
>Âñåãäà ñ÷èòàë, ÷òî ïåðâàÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðà áûëà ñîçäàíà Ïîëîì Áèãñáè â 1948 ãîäó äëÿ Ìåðëè Òðåâèñà êðàñèâàÿ |
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Àâòîð |
Òåìà: Re: Äåíü ðîæäåíèÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðû, âîçìîæíî
Âðåìÿ: 26.04.2013 11:15 |
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Ìîñêâà Strat, ASAT, SG, Takamine |
Choko , ÿ çíàë, ÷òî êòî-òî ýòî íàïèøåò)) ïîòîìó óêàçàë ñïåöèàëüíî - >ïåðâîé â ìèðå ìàññîâî âûïóñêàþùåéñÿ öåëüíîêîðïóñíîé ãèòàðû Åñëè áû Ëåî Ô. ïîä âïå÷àòëåíèåì îò Òðýâèñîâñêîé ãèòàðû íå íà÷àë ìàññîâî øòàìïîâàòü ñâîè äîñêè - ìîæåò áûòü, âñå áûëî áû èíà÷å. Ïîñêîëüêó øòó÷íûé òîâàð Ïîëà Áèãñáè íèêàê íå îêàçàë áû òîãî âëèÿíèÿ íà ìàññîâîå ãèòàðèñòñêîå ñîçíàíèå)) |
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Strat, ASAT, SG->Budda-> Cmatmods Signa Comp-> Zendrive->OCD->Fulltone '70 -> MXR Phase 90-> T-Rex Tremster-> RC Booster-> Strymon Brigadier-> Strymon Blue Sky// TS-808->BJFe Folk Fuzz->Wampler Plexi Drive-> Ibanez Flanger->EHX Pulsar->Malekko 616
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Àâòîð |
Òåìà: Re: Äåíü ðîæäåíèÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðû, âîçìîæíî
Âðåìÿ: 26.04.2013 11:17 |
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Ìîñêîâñêèå çàäâîðêè. Ïàëî÷êè ñàìîïàëî÷êè |
Êóðè êàê ìàëî Áèãñáè ãèòàð íàñòðóãàë |
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"òû òàê ãîâîðèøü, áóäòî óáèéñòâî æèâîãî ñóùåñòâà - ýòî ÷òî-òî ïëîõîå" © Ëåáåäèíûé õðóñò
"It never ceases to amaze me, people in an effects forum complaining about somebody using too many effects" © |
Àâòîð |
Òåìà: Re: Äåíü ðîæäåíèÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðû, âîçìîæíî
Âðåìÿ: 26.04.2013 11:24 |
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Ìîñêâà Strat, ASAT, SG, Takamine |
Choko , êëåâûé ñàéò, ñïàñèáî)) âñåãäà áûëî èíòåðåñíî, êàê îíè ó íåãî çâó÷àò)) Íî òû ïîíÿë î ÷åì ÿ. Ýòî âñå ðàâíî - øòó÷íûé òîâàð))) | |
Strat, ASAT, SG->Budda-> Cmatmods Signa Comp-> Zendrive->OCD->Fulltone '70 -> MXR Phase 90-> T-Rex Tremster-> RC Booster-> Strymon Brigadier-> Strymon Blue Sky// TS-808->BJFe Folk Fuzz->Wampler Plexi Drive-> Ibanez Flanger->EHX Pulsar->Malekko 616
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Àâòîð |
Òåìà: Re: Äåíü ðîæäåíèÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðû, âîçìîæíî
Âðåìÿ: 26.04.2013 11:31 |
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Ìîñêîâñêèå çàäâîðêè. Ïàëî÷êè ñàìîïàëî÷êè |
Íó ýòî âñå íà ñàìîì äåëå ñïîðíî. Òóò ñèëüíî êîðåæèò âïå÷àòëåíèå ãðàìîòíàÿ ìàðêåòèíãîâàÿ ðåêëàìà íûíåøíèõ Ôåíäåðîâ è Ãèáñîíîâ. Îíè ëþáÿò ñåé÷àñ ëåïèòü ñåáå äèôèðàìáû è íàìåðåííî èñêàæàòü èñòîðè÷åñêèå ôàêòû. Ïðî òó æå ñêîâîðîäêó Ðèêåíáåêåðà çíàþò òîëüêî ìàíüÿêè Êòî çíàåò êàê áû âûãëÿäåëî ëèöî ãèòàðèçìà, åñëè áû òîò æå Áèãçáè ðàñêðóòèëñÿ êàê Ôåíäåð. Ïîñòî Ëåî áûë ïðîçîðëèâûì ïî ÷àñòè ïàòåíòîâ, ïîòîìó ðåâíîñòíî ïàòåíòîâàë êàæäûé ñâîé ÷èõ. Íà ÷òî ïîòîì ñàì íàïîðîëñÿ êîãäà óøåë â G&L |
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"òû òàê ãîâîðèøü, áóäòî óáèéñòâî æèâîãî ñóùåñòâà - ýòî ÷òî-òî ïëîõîå" © Ëåáåäèíûé õðóñò
"It never ceases to amaze me, people in an effects forum complaining about somebody using too many effects" © |
Àâòîð |
Òåìà: Re: Äåíü ðîæäåíèÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðû, âîçìîæíî
Âðåìÿ: 26.04.2013 11:33 |
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Áàðíàóë Fender Am Deluxe Strat |
>>ó òÿ äèêî áîëüøîãî êàëèáðà ñòðóíû? ïîñòàâü ïîìåíüøå 9-êó, 10-êó, òÿíóòü áåíäû ýòîæ îñíîâà îñíîâ. è ïîëòîðà òÿíóò è íà 2 >êòî-òî òàì íà îêòàâó ïîäòÿãèâàë(åò), íàïîìíèòå ëþáîé, ó êîãî åñòü âàììè |
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Guitar players are always doing shit with feedback. They love it, everyone else hates it. (c) Ray Manzarek
The Les Paul is a beautiful guitar but it’s heavy as shit! (c) Joan Jett |
Àâòîð |
Òåìà: Re: Äåíü ðîæäåíèÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðû, âîçìîæíî
Âðåìÿ: 26.04.2013 12:55 |
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ðåáÿòà, ÿ ïîíèìàþ, ÷òî ðàçíèöà ìåæäó öåëüíîêîðïóñíûìè è ïîëûìè âíóòðè ãèòàðàìè åñòü íî ïðèíöèïèàëüíî ýòî âñå æå ðîäñòâåííûå èíñòðóìåíòû ïåðâûå ýëåêòðîãèòàðû ïîÿâèëèñü åù¸ äî 2-é ìèðîâîé, â äæàç-áýíäàõ âðåìåí ñâèíãà ãèòàðèñòû óæå âî âñþ øïèëèëè íà ñâîèõ áàíêàõ â ñâîè ïåðâûå êîìáû òî÷íûõ äàò íå çíàþ, íî íà ÷åì-òî æå çàïèñûâàëñÿ ×àðëè Êðèñòèàí, íàïðèìåð, à ýòî áûëî åù¸ â ïåðâîé ïîëîâèíå 20-ãî âåêà |
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Àâòîð |
Òåìà: Re: Äåíü ðîæäåíèÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðû, âîçìîæíî
Âðåìÿ: 26.04.2013 13:28 |
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Ìîñêâà |
>íî ïðèíöèïèàëüíî ýòî âñå æå ðîäñòâåííûå èíñòðóìåíòû íó ïî ñóòè ýòî ýâîëþöèÿ òîãî, ÷åãî èçíà÷àëüíî õîòåëè îò ãèòàðû â íà÷àëå 20 âåêà, ò.å. ñäåëàòü å¸ ãðîì÷å, ïîñòàâèëè ìàãíèòíûå äàò÷èêè, âðîäå ïîëó÷èëîñü, íî õîòåëîñü åùå ãðîì÷å è ÷òîá áåç îáðàòíîé ñâÿçè - ïîÿâèëàñü öåëüíîêîðïóñíàÿ ãèòàðà. Ò.å. ïîñòåïåííî ïðèõîäèëî îñîçíàíèå, ÷òî òåïåðü äëÿ áîëüøîãî çâóêà íåíóæíà ãèòàðà ñ áîëüøèì íåóäîáíûì êîðïóñîì |
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Àâòîð |
Òåìà: Re: Äåíü ðîæäåíèÿ ýëåêòðîãèòàðû, âîçìîæíî
Âðåìÿ: 26.04.2013 16:06 |
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â 1936 ãèáñ ñòàâèë óæå ýëåêòðîìàãíèòíûé äàò÷èê íà àðêòîïû , à ñàìîäåëêè, âîçìîæíî è ðàíüøå ... | |
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