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Ãèòàðíûå ýôôåêòû è êîìáèêè: îáñóæäåíèå ãèòàðíîãî îáîðóäîâàíèÿ

Çàäàòü íîâóþ òåìó
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Ýêâàëèçàöèÿ ãèòàðû. BOSS GE-7.
Âðåìÿ: 02.02.2010 10:43 

ãèòàðà.âîêàë

Ïðèîáðåë â÷åðà ñåé äåâàéñ è ïðèÿòíî ïðîâåë âå÷åð! Íàäî ñêàçàòü, âñå ìîè îæèäàíèÿ îïðàâäàë (ìîæåò íà ôîíå îñòàëüíîãî áîññîâñêîãî?..) è æåëàíèÿ îñóùåñòâèë!

«+»
1. Íó âî-ïåðâûõ ïîëíîöåííûé è àäåêâàòíûé ãðàôè÷åñêèé ãèòàðíûé ýêâàëàéçåð, îõâàòûâàþùèé âåñü íåîáõîäèìûé ñïåêòð.
2. Íå òðóáàéïàñ, íî è íå òàêîå ñèëüíîå èñêàæåíèå ñèãíàëà ïðè îáõîäå êàê îæèäàëîñü îò áîññà - íåçíà÷èòåëüíûé ñðåç âûñîêèõ è óñèëåíèå «òåïëûõ» ÷àñòîò 200…300 Ãö, ÷òî òîæå ìîæíî îòíåñòè ê ïëþñàì.

«-»
1. Íå òðóáàéïàñ ;) .
2. Íàëè÷èå ôîíà âî âêëþ÷åííîì ñîñòîÿíèè ïîðÿäêà -39 äÁ, êîòîðûé â öåëîì íåïëîõî ãåéòèòñÿ è óáèðàåòñÿ äåíîéñåðîì â ðåäàêòîðå (Àäîá), òàê êàê äîñòàòî÷íî îäíîðîäåí. Ýêâàëàéçåðû êñòàòè âñå øóìÿò, ñàìîå øóìÿùåå îáîðóäîâàíèå âñåãäà íà ñòóäèè!

Ïîñòàâèë åãî ïîñëå ïåðåãðóçà, ñîáñòâåííî äëÿ ýòîãî è áðàë, òàê êàê êîìáèêîâñêèì ýêâàëàéçåðîì íå ìîã íóæíûé çâóê íàðóëèòü, à òåì áîëåå èçáàâèòüñÿ îò ëèøíåé çåðíèñòîñòè è ïåñî÷èñòîñòè.

È ïîçâîëüòå íåñêîëüêî ñîâåòîâ ïî ýêñïëóàòàöèè-ýêâàëèçàöèè.

100 Ãö – ýòî íèçêàÿ îñíîâà çâóêà ãèòàðû, íî åñëè åå ìíîãî, òî ãèòàðà òóñêíååò è áóáíèò. Åñëè âû îáëàäàòåëü õîðîøåãî óñèëèòåëÿ èëè íå èãðàåòå òÿæ, òî âàì íàâåðíÿêà çàõî÷åòñÿ ïðèáðàòü ýòó ÷àñòîòó.
200 Ãö – ïðèäàåò ïîëíîòó, «òåïëîòó» çâóêó, ïîýòîìó ÿ ïðèáàâëÿþ ÷óòü-÷óòü, îäíàêî èçëèøåê ïðèâåäåò ê òóñêëîñòè çâóêà.
400 Ãö - äëÿ ìíîãèõ èíñòðóìåíòîâ ïàðàçèòíà, ýòè ÷àñòîòû ãðóáîâàòû íà ñëóõ, â ãèòàðå íàäî èõ ïðèáðàòü.
800 Ãö – ïðè èñïîëüçîâàíèè ïåðåãðóçà çäåñü íà÷èíàþòñÿ ÷àñòîòû òàê íàçûâàåìîãî smooth overdrive. Ýòî òàêîé îëäñêóëüíûé çâóê, ÿ íå òðîãàþ ýòó ðó÷êó äëÿ ñâîåãî Áèã Ìàôà, à äëÿ «êëèíà» ëó÷øå íåìíîãî óáàâèòü – çâóê ñòàíîâèòüñÿ áîëåå ïðîçðà÷íûì. Íî íå ïåðåáîðùèòå, ñ ïîÿâëåíèåì ïðîçðà÷íîñòè óõîäèò õàðàêòåð!
1,6 êÃö – óëó÷øàåò àòàêó. Äëÿ ïåðåãðóçà ýòî ôóçîâûå ÷àñòîòû, ÿ íåìíîãî ïðèáàâëÿþ çäåñü è äëÿ «êëèíà» è äëÿ äðàéâà.
3,2 êÃö – ÷àñòîòû îáóñëàâëèâàþò òàê íàçûâàåìûé «ýôôåêò ïðèñóòñòâèÿ», áëèçîñòü èíñòðóìåíòà ê ñëóøàòåëþ. Î÷åíü âàæíûå ÷àñòîòû äëÿ ãèòàðû, à äëÿ ïåðåãðóçà – ýòî åãî ñàìà ñóòü ;) , ïðèáàâëÿþ âïëîòü äî 10 äÁ!
6,4 êÃö – ÷àñòîòû, äåëàþùèå çâóê ðåçêèì. Äëÿ ÷èñòîãî çâóêà öåëåñîîáðàçíî îñòàâèòü èõ íå óâåëè÷èâàÿ, òîëüêî â êðàéíåì ñëó÷àå íåîáõîäèìîñòè. À äëÿ ïåðåãðóçà öåëåñîîáðàçíî ïðèáèðàòü èõ äî ïðèåìëåìîãî óðîâíÿ âûñîêî÷àñòîòíîãî òðåñêà – «ïåñêà». Äëÿ äèñòîðøíîâ è õàé-ãåéí ñòîìïîâ ðó÷êó íàâåðíîå ïðèäåòñÿ îïóñòèòü äî êîíöà, ÷òî-áû ïîëó÷èòü ìîùíûé, ïëîòíûé, íå çåðíèñòûé è äðåáåçæàùèé çâóê.

Óñïåõîâ!!!
epiphone lp-100.yerasov s-compressor sc-3.yerasov green tick screamer gt-1.big muff pi (moroz-off custom).boss equalizer ge-7.carl martin classic chorus.tech 21 boost d.l.a. analog delay.ibanez tbx15r.laney lg35 + electrovoice co-9.tc-helicon voicelive
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Ýêâàëèçàöèÿ ãèòàðû. BOSS GE-7.
Âðåìÿ: 02.02.2010 11:01 
Ìåäâåïóòèíñê
Microkorg XL

øèïèò îí àäñêè è ïîìåõè ñ ãèðëÿíäû ëîâèò, â âèäó ýòîãî áûë ïðîäàí è çàìåíåí êðó÷åíèåì ðó÷åê òåìáðà âåçäå. ìîæåò åñëè ïîñòàâèòü àóäèîôèëüñêèå îïåðà - øèïåòü ïåðåñòàíåò, íî, ó íàñ â ñòðàíå íå òàêàÿ áîëüøàÿ ïîòðåáíîñòü â ýêâàëàéçåðàõ, õèìè÷èòü íå íà ÷åì

òî, ÷òî çàñòàâèò èíñòðóìåíò çâó÷àòü ïî íîâîìó, òî äà, ñèëüíûé ïëþñ
- Êîíöåðò Ñòàñà Ìèõàéëîâà â Ìóðìàíñêå îòìåí¸í èç-çà îòñóòñòâèÿ çðèòåëåé
- Ïîõîæå, Ìóðìàíñêó ïîðà ïðèñâàèâàòü çâàíèå Êóëüòóðíîé Ñòîëèöû Ðîññèè.
www.shift-line.com
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Ýêâàëèçàöèÿ ãèòàðû. BOSS GE-7.
Âðåìÿ: 02.02.2010 11:11 

ãèòàðà.âîêàë

-39 äÁ äëÿ ñòóäèè íà ñàìîì äåëå àööêè, íî äëÿ ñöåíû îôèãåííî ñîéäåò!!!
Ãëàâíîå - ýêâàëàéçåð àäåêâàòåí è ïîçâîëÿåò ïîëó÷èòü òðåáóåìûé çâóê!

À âîò, êñòàòè, ôèøêà - äëÿ õîðîøåé êîìïðåññèè çàïèñåé íà ñòóäèè äîáàâëÿþò â ìèêñ... áåëûé øóì ïî âñåìó ÷àñòîòíîìó äèàïàçîíó. Ó äåâàéñà êîíå÷íî íå ïî âñåìó äèàïàçîíó øóìèò (ãäå-òî âåðõíÿÿ ñåðåäèíà), íî äëÿ äîìàøíèõ äåìîê ÿ åãî â ëþáîì ñëó÷àå ñ óñïåõîì äóìàþ ñìîãó èñïîëüçîâàòü!
epiphone lp-100.yerasov s-compressor sc-3.yerasov green tick screamer gt-1.big muff pi (moroz-off custom).boss equalizer ge-7.carl martin classic chorus.tech 21 boost d.l.a. analog delay.ibanez tbx15r.laney lg35 + electrovoice co-9.tc-helicon voicelive
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Ýêâàëèçàöèÿ ãèòàðû. BOSS GE-7.
Âðåìÿ: 02.02.2010 11:23 
Ìîñêâà
Strat, ASAT, SG, Takamine

Âîò ìîé ÃÅ-7.. ïî÷åòíî óáðàííûé â ÿùèê))



ÿ ñ íèì îêîëî 2 ëåò èãðàë, âîîáùå îêàçàëñÿ îäíîé èç ãëàâíûõ ïåäàëåé. ïîòîì çàäîëáàë è â ïðîöåññå óáèðàíèÿ ïåäàëåé, ñúåäàþùèõ îñòðîòó òåëåêàñòåðà, áûë èçúÿò òèç öåïè))
Strat, ASAT, SG->Budda-> Cmatmods Signa Comp-> Zendrive->OCD->Fulltone '70 -> MXR Phase 90-> T-Rex Tremster-> RC Booster-> Strymon Brigadier-> Strymon Blue Sky// TS-808->BJFe Folk Fuzz->Wampler Plexi Drive-> Ibanez Flanger->EHX Pulsar->Malekko 616
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Ýêâàëèçàöèÿ ãèòàðû. BOSS GE-7.
Âðåìÿ: 02.02.2010 11:59 

ãèòàðà.âîêàë

Òî÷íà îí, íó ó ìåíÿ îñòðîòû ìàëî â õàìáàõ, ïîýòîìó ÿ åùå ñ óäîâîëüñòâèåì ïîïîëüçóþñü, êñòàòè äîáàâëÿÿ ÷óòü íà 3,2 è 6,4 (â ìåðó) çâóê ñòàíîâèòñÿ îñòðåå, ïîõîæ íà ñèíãëîâûé ;) .
epiphone lp-100.yerasov s-compressor sc-3.yerasov green tick screamer gt-1.big muff pi (moroz-off custom).boss equalizer ge-7.carl martin classic chorus.tech 21 boost d.l.a. analog delay.ibanez tbx15r.laney lg35 + electrovoice co-9.tc-helicon voicelive
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Ýêâàëèçàöèÿ ãèòàðû. BOSS GE-7.
Âðåìÿ: 11.02.2010 22:21 

ãèòàðà.âîêàë

Î, ÁÎÑÑ âèðòóàëüíûé ïåäàëáîðä. ×òî ñàìîå èíòåðåñíîå, íà ýìóëÿòîðàõ ïåäàëåé ñëûøíî êàê êàæäàÿ èñêàæàåò çâóê. Íàïðèìåð ïðè âêëþ÷åíèè ôàçåøèôòåðà óðîâåíü çàìåòíî ïàäàåò!!!

http://www.bossus.com/go/vpb-2/
epiphone lp-100.yerasov s-compressor sc-3.yerasov green tick screamer gt-1.big muff pi (moroz-off custom).boss equalizer ge-7.carl martin classic chorus.tech 21 boost d.l.a. analog delay.ibanez tbx15r.laney lg35 + electrovoice co-9.tc-helicon voicelive
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Ýêâàëèçàöèÿ ãèòàðû. BOSS GE-7.
Âðåìÿ: 11.02.2010 22:28 
Ìîñêâà
Strat, ASAT, SG, Takamine

Blessed , î, ñêîëüêî âàì îòêðûòèé ÷óäíûõ ãîòîâèò ïðîñâåùåíüÿ äóõ)))
Strat, ASAT, SG->Budda-> Cmatmods Signa Comp-> Zendrive->OCD->Fulltone '70 -> MXR Phase 90-> T-Rex Tremster-> RC Booster-> Strymon Brigadier-> Strymon Blue Sky// TS-808->BJFe Folk Fuzz->Wampler Plexi Drive-> Ibanez Flanger->EHX Pulsar->Malekko 616
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Ýêâàëèçàöèÿ ãèòàðû. BOSS GE-7.
Âðåìÿ: 11.02.2010 22:32 
ñàðàòîâ
banhammer


>3,2 êÃö – ÷àñòîòû îáóñëàâëèâàþò òàê íàçûâàåìûé «ýôôåêò ïðèñóòñòâèÿ», áëèçîñòü èíñòðóìåíòà ê ñëóøàòåëþ. Î÷åíü âàæíûå ÷àñòîòû äëÿ ãèòàðû, à äëÿ ïåðåãðóçà – ýòî åãî ñàìà ñóòü , ïðèáàâëÿþ âïëîòü äî 10 äÁ!

äà ýòî íàâåðíÿêà ëñä ëèáî òÿæåëàÿ ïñèõîïàòèÿ ïîõîäó... :7:
êîò, êàòîðûé ïàòîì óìèð :7:
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Ýêâàëèçàöèÿ ãèòàðû. BOSS GE-7.
Âðåìÿ: 11.02.2010 22:44 
ÍÅÐÈÇÈÍÎÂÀß
Jackson Soloist "Black Blood", Yamaha SRR400, Hamer Studio

Ñàìà ñóòü-ýòî ïèâî Õýéíèêåí
Ê ñîæàëåíèþ, çíàíèÿ ïîëîâûì ïóòåì íå ïåðåäàþòñÿ
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Ýêâàëèçàöèÿ ãèòàðû. BOSS GE-7.
Âðåìÿ: 11.02.2010 22:45 

ãèòàðà.âîêàë

???
epiphone lp-100.yerasov s-compressor sc-3.yerasov green tick screamer gt-1.big muff pi (moroz-off custom).boss equalizer ge-7.carl martin classic chorus.tech 21 boost d.l.a. analog delay.ibanez tbx15r.laney lg35 + electrovoice co-9.tc-helicon voicelive
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Ýêâàëèçàöèÿ ãèòàðû. BOSS GE-7.
Âðåìÿ: 11.02.2010 22:48 
ñàðàòîâ
banhammer

îëîëî, ïðèìåð ýêâàëèçàöèè íà ÷óäî ïðèáîðå ñî çíàòíûìè ñîâåòàìè âñòóäèþ
êîò, êàòîðûé ïàòîì óìèð :7:
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Ýêâàëèçàöèÿ ãèòàðû. BOSS GE-7.
Âðåìÿ: 11.02.2010 22:48 
Ìîñêâà
Strat, ASAT, SG, Takamine

ÿ âîò òåïåðü íå çíàþ... óæå äàâíî íå þçàë ýêâàëàéçåð.. íóæåí îí ìíå èëè íåò...
Strat, ASAT, SG->Budda-> Cmatmods Signa Comp-> Zendrive->OCD->Fulltone '70 -> MXR Phase 90-> T-Rex Tremster-> RC Booster-> Strymon Brigadier-> Strymon Blue Sky// TS-808->BJFe Folk Fuzz->Wampler Plexi Drive-> Ibanez Flanger->EHX Pulsar->Malekko 616
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Ýêâàëèçàöèÿ ãèòàðû. BOSS GE-7.
Âðåìÿ: 12.02.2010 09:08 

ãèòàðà.âîêàë

Íå âñå æ çäåñü äîêòîðà, ñëàâà Áîãó!
epiphone lp-100.yerasov s-compressor sc-3.yerasov green tick screamer gt-1.big muff pi (moroz-off custom).boss equalizer ge-7.carl martin classic chorus.tech 21 boost d.l.a. analog delay.ibanez tbx15r.laney lg35 + electrovoice co-9.tc-helicon voicelive
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Ýêâàëèçàöèÿ ãèòàðû. BOSS GE-7.
Âðåìÿ: 12.02.2010 11:06 
Ìåäâåïóòèíñê
Microkorg XL

>Òî÷íà îí, íó ó ìåíÿ îñòðîòû ìàëî â õàìáàõ, ïîýòîìó ÿ åùå ñ óäîâîëüñòâèåì ïîïîëüçóþñü, êñòàòè äîáàâëÿÿ ÷óòü íà 3,2 è 6,4 (â ìåðó) çâóê ñòàíîâèòñÿ îñòðåå, ïîõîæ íà ñèíãëîâûé .

ãèòàðó áû ñìåíèë íà ÷òîòî ïîäîðîæå 150 áàêñîâ. Çà 500-600 á/ó îòäåëüíûå ýêçåìïëÿðû íà÷èíàþò óæå çâó÷àòü
- Êîíöåðò Ñòàñà Ìèõàéëîâà â Ìóðìàíñêå îòìåí¸í èç-çà îòñóòñòâèÿ çðèòåëåé
- Ïîõîæå, Ìóðìàíñêó ïîðà ïðèñâàèâàòü çâàíèå Êóëüòóðíîé Ñòîëèöû Ðîññèè.
www.shift-line.com
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Ýêâàëèçàöèÿ ãèòàðû. BOSS GE-7.
Âðåìÿ: 13.02.2010 22:42 
ÍÅÐÈÇÈÍÎÂÀß
Jackson Soloist "Black Blood", Yamaha SRR400, Hamer Studio

Ïèïåö, àä ïðîñòî òåìà, îñîáåííî ñàì ïèàð äåâàéñà, áëèí, ïàðåíü, â òåáå ðåàëüíî ïðîïàáàåò çíàòíûé ðåêëàìùèê, òèïà çíàìåíèòîãî Îêòàâà èç 99 ôðàíêîâ Áåãáåäåðà, ìîëîäåö, íè ñòûäà íè ñîâåñòè, ãû ãû
Ê ñîæàëåíèþ, çíàíèÿ ïîëîâûì ïóòåì íå ïåðåäàþòñÿ
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Ýêâàëèçàöèÿ ãèòàðû. BOSS GE-7.
Âðåìÿ: 13.02.2010 22:49 

ãèòàðà.âîêàë

Ëþáëþ âîçáóæäàòü ìÍÅÍÈß!
epiphone lp-100.yerasov s-compressor sc-3.yerasov green tick screamer gt-1.big muff pi (moroz-off custom).boss equalizer ge-7.carl martin classic chorus.tech 21 boost d.l.a. analog delay.ibanez tbx15r.laney lg35 + electrovoice co-9.tc-helicon voicelive
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Ýêâàëèçàöèÿ ãèòàðû. BOSS GE-7.
Âðåìÿ: 13.02.2010 22:53 
Ñàíêò-Ïåòåðáóðã
Ãèòàðà

Gustaw , êàê ó òåáÿ õâàòàåò òåðïåíèÿ íå îòêëåèòü ïëåíî÷êó ñ ëåéáëà? Ñìîòðþ íà ôîòî è àæ òðÿñóñü îò âîæäåëåíèÿ :-)
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Ýêâàëèçàöèÿ ãèòàðû. BOSS GE-7.
Âðåìÿ: 13.02.2010 22:54 
Áåëãîðîä


>Ëþáëþ âîçáóæäàòü ìÍÅÍÈß!


Íó-íó. Íå ñòîèò a posteriori ïûòàòüñÿ âûäàâàòü ñàáæåâóþ ÷óøü çà òðîëëèíã.
"Cëàâà àëëàõó, ÷òî ÿ íå ñîñòîÿëñÿ êàê ìóçûêàíò, òåïåðü åñòü ãäå æèòü è íà ÷åì åçäèòü 8)" © Research
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Ýêâàëèçàöèÿ ãèòàðû. BOSS GE-7.
Âðåìÿ: 13.02.2010 22:55 
Áåëãîðîä


ÁÅËÛÉ_ÊÎÒ , èíûå àïïàðàòû â òàêîì äåâñòâåííîì âèäå ïî ç-4 õîçÿèíà óñïåâàþò ñìåíèòü)))
"Cëàâà àëëàõó, ÷òî ÿ íå ñîñòîÿëñÿ êàê ìóçûêàíò, òåïåðü åñòü ãäå æèòü è íà ÷åì åçäèòü 8)" © Research
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Ýêâàëèçàöèÿ ãèòàðû. BOSS GE-7.
Âðåìÿ: 14.02.2010 10:39 
ñàðàòîâ
banhammer

Äåí2 , âîò ó ìåíÿ äâà ã-ìàæîðà ñåé÷àñ âî âëàäåíèè.

òàê âîò íà îáåèõ ïëåíî÷êó ñ äèñïëåÿ äî ñèõ ïîð íèêòî íå îòîäðàë.

îäíîìó 5 ëåò, äðóãîìó 4 ãîäà.... ÿ âòîðîé õîçÿèí è â òîì è â äðóãîì ñëó÷àå.
êîò, êàòîðûé ïàòîì óìèð :7:
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Ýêâàëèçàöèÿ ãèòàðû. BOSS GE-7.
Âðåìÿ: 15.02.2010 19:21 
Òàãàíðîã
Àýðîóïðóãîñòü

>
>>3,2 êÃö – ÷àñòîòû îáóñëàâëèâàþò òàê íàçûâàåìûé «ýôôåêò ïðèñóòñòâèÿ», áëèçîñòü èíñòðóìåíòà ê ñëóøàòåëþ. Î÷åíü âàæíûå ÷àñòîòû äëÿ ãèòàðû, à äëÿ ïåðåãðóçà – ýòî åãî ñàìà ñóòü , ïðèáàâëÿþ âïëîòü äî 10 äÁ!
>
>äà ýòî íàâåðíÿêà ëñä ëèáî òÿæåëàÿ ïñèõîïàòèÿ ïîõîäó...

Äà âïðèíöèïå ïðàâèëüíî ïàðåíü òî íàïèñàë - ïèê êðèâîé Ôëýò÷åðà-Ìýíñîíà êàêðàç â ðàéîíå 3,2 êÃö... Äà è òð¸øêó ÿ ÷àñòî ñëûøàë êàê çâóêàðè "ïðåçåíñîì" íàçûâàëè...
À íàñ÷¸ò ñóòè ïåðåãðóçà - ýòî êîíå÷íî áðåä! Äà è íà ñ÷¸ò ïàðàçèòíîé ÷àñòîòû â 400ãö.... Îáû÷íî óêàçûâàþò äèàïàçîí îò 200 äî 800ãö. ß ëè÷íî ÷àñòî 300 óáèðàþ ìàëîé äîáðîòíîñòüþ. 400-600 - ýòî ïåðâàÿ ôîðìàíòà ó äèñòîðøèí ãèòàðû, åñëè å¸ ñèëüíî êîöàòü, ìîæíî çâóê ïîëó÷èòü ïëîñêèé è áåç îñíîâû! :idea2:
ÏÀÎ "ÒÀÍÒÊ èì. Ã. Ì. Áåðèåâà", ÎÊÁ
Àâòîð
Òåìà: Re: Ýêâàëèçàöèÿ ãèòàðû. BOSS GE-7.
Âðåìÿ: 17.02.2010 21:52 
Carvin CT6M,
Ibanez JEM77, Jackson Soloist,

> Äåí2 , âîò ó ìåíÿ äâà ã-ìàæîðà ñåé÷àñ âî âëàäåíèè.
>òàê âîò íà îáåèõ ïëåíî÷êó ñ äèñïëåÿ äî ñèõ ïîð íèêòî íå îòîäðàë.
>îäíîìó 5 ëåò, äðóãîìó 4 ãîäà.... ÿ âòîðîé õîçÿèí è â òîì è â äðóãîì ñëó÷àå.
Áëèíí... À ÿ îòîäðàë.
:headbang:
Íåò ïëîõèõ èíñòðóìåíòîâ, åñòü ïàðíè - ñ ðóêàìè èç æîïû!
 ýòîò ôîðóì ìîãóò ïèñàòü òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûå ïîëüçîâàòåëè!